tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post2333171841577994370..comments2023-10-25T05:30:54.507-04:00Comments on Oh Get A Grip!: The Optimist's ApologyAshe Barkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03390519279886657608noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-62837971056619702402013-06-03T22:10:02.640-04:002013-06-03T22:10:02.640-04:00Amen.
Amen.<br />Jean Robertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08805088081675965859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-69236673391543088102013-05-31T01:14:37.431-04:002013-05-31T01:14:37.431-04:00I wonder if, in a world where everyone was happily...I wonder if, in a world where everyone was happily coupled, we'd see lots of fiction about adultery...<br /><br />Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-34517364798364720442013-05-30T23:30:28.060-04:002013-05-30T23:30:28.060-04:00Happiness is such a subjective matter that it'...Happiness is such a subjective matter that it's too bad it gets so formulary in relationship fiction. If both parties get what they wanted, that should be a happy ending, even if what they wanted was a swift roll in the hay. But most of us are hardwired (or maybe softwired) to yearn for a sense of relationship security. Sacchi Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10801164916418570059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-18765483951835126622013-05-29T22:34:42.833-04:002013-05-29T22:34:42.833-04:00thanks. i took a wee look. not exactly a match, bu...thanks. i took a wee look. not exactly a match, but good to see nonetheless.Amanda Earlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09059621442042833693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-62035485278402892062013-05-29T08:01:12.755-04:002013-05-29T08:01:12.755-04:00Thanks, Garce. I know. That's the kind of stor...Thanks, Garce. I know. That's the kind of story YOU write.<br />Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-91405892338888434932013-05-29T08:00:49.057-04:002013-05-29T08:00:49.057-04:00Definitely want you to write that memoir, Daddy!Definitely want you to write that memoir, Daddy!Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-83306200417401351712013-05-29T08:00:19.802-04:002013-05-29T08:00:19.802-04:00Hi, Kim,
I agree completely that there are deep, ...Hi, Kim,<br /><br />I agree completely that there are deep, even biologically-based, reasons why happy endings are so popular. <br /><br />And I love to read out of the box tales.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-66449788235869356752013-05-29T07:58:22.812-04:002013-05-29T07:58:22.812-04:00Hi, Kim,
I don't think you need to worry. Nob...Hi, Kim,<br /><br />I don't think you need to worry. Nobody is suggesting that darker erotica will or should supplant the sunnier version. I think that is highly unlikely, as much due to our human desire for closure as due to market forces.<br /><br />We're worried about the latter - that publishers will no longer be interested in stories that end in a less than happy way. Believe me, I have been publishing erotica for fourteen years, and there is definitely a trend in that direction. Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-34265430221430769962013-05-29T07:55:36.213-04:002013-05-29T07:55:36.213-04:00I suspect that even in historical times, some wome...I suspect that even in historical times, some women managed to create more equality than the norm in their relationships. Though perhaps such women ended up as social outcasts.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-71033727224191534462013-05-29T07:53:55.642-04:002013-05-29T07:53:55.642-04:00Belonging is sexy. Actually in the D/s world, prop...Belonging is sexy. Actually in the D/s world, property can be sexy, too. But that's a very different deal from literal chattel.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-42281983879413348992013-05-29T07:53:16.958-04:002013-05-29T07:53:16.958-04:00Jean -
How much "traditional" romance ...Jean - <br /><br />How much "traditional" romance have you read lately? I think the "property" aspect has definitely gone out the window. And of course there's an extremely healthy sub-genre of M/M romance as well as polyamorous romance. (F/F romance has a market too, but it's a bit of a read-headed stepchild from what I can see.)<br /><br />On the other hand, the popularity of erotic romance does have the potential to smother erotica, or at least some flavors thereof. It's interesting, because I believe that many readers of erotic romance might come to enjoy literary erotica as well. <br />Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-91018424224156137622013-05-29T07:49:31.574-04:002013-05-29T07:49:31.574-04:00Hello, J.L.,
Thank you for dropping by.
I really...Hello, J.L.,<br /><br />Thank you for dropping by.<br /><br />I really enjoy a romance that recognizes how complicated relationships really are. And I have a lot of trouble with stories where all of a sudden the characters' histories and hang-ups just don't seem to matter anymore. That's not the way things work.<br /><br />Someday, I should write a romance based on my sister's relationship with her (now) husband. They broke up at least three times over the course of five years before they finally figured out how to work with their differences and emphasize their commonalities (which were many). At times they make each other miserable - but they would be far more unhappy apart.<br /><br /><br />Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-40604474889762826022013-05-29T07:46:06.328-04:002013-05-29T07:46:06.328-04:00Daddy - if you submitted more often, you'd get...Daddy - if you submitted more often, you'd get accepted more often... I find that a CFS often acts as a stimulus, getting me to dream up a story I'd never even considered before. (The Written on Skin story is an example. I desperately want to be in an antho edited by RG and her colleagues, even for a measly $25!)<br /><br />Of course, happiness is clearly in the eye of the beholder. Once or twice I've had someone say to me, "You've had it so hard" - quite seriously. And sure, I've had some rough times in my life, as does everyone. But when I get that kind of comment from someone, I feel totally bewildered. The good just seems to so completely outweigh the bad when I look back. Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-40679774098488770382013-05-29T07:42:10.846-04:002013-05-29T07:42:10.846-04:00Hello, Aurelia,
I agree with you - romance demand...Hello, Aurelia,<br /><br />I agree with you - romance demands more than just a HFN. But would you agree with me that it CAN'T be called romance without a happy ending?<br /><br />I also think the labels are useless. My first three novels neatly straddle the erotica/erotic romance divide, with features of both genres.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-12410022921247675352013-05-29T07:40:28.847-04:002013-05-29T07:40:28.847-04:00Hi, Naomi,
Definitely write it anyway!!
I'm...Hi, Naomi,<br /><br />Definitely write it anyway!! <br /><br />I'm working on a story idea where the female protagonist wants to submit to the male protagonist, but he's not interested. He tells her she's not really submissive and that there's no chemistry (although there is on her side). Unrequited D/s - probably more common than you'd ever think from "the literature"!Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-75790363937023303392013-05-29T07:38:15.176-04:002013-05-29T07:38:15.176-04:00Hi, Margaret,
There's definitely a special sa...Hi, Margaret,<br /><br />There's definitely a special satisfaction that comes from a well-written and well-motivated happy ending, especially if you identify with the characters!Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-82121465413496022032013-05-29T07:37:14.321-04:002013-05-29T07:37:14.321-04:00Hello, Sessha,
From what I have found, "talk...Hello, Sessha,<br /><br />From what I have found, "talking" to romance readers, they don't expect a HEA and never did. They recognize that HEA is mostly a fantasy, but enjoy it anyway, as a way of escaping from the harder aspects of real life.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-8189070933040717742013-05-29T07:35:40.070-04:002013-05-29T07:35:40.070-04:00Stiff Rain is the brain child of Carol Lynne, a ph...Stiff Rain is the brain child of Carol Lynne, a phenomenally successful author of M/M erotic romance. She's a great gal. Her goal, I think, is to provide an outlet for well-written erotic fiction that might not get published elsewhere due to its taboo content. Not necessarily "gritty" or "dark", though I'm sure those characteristics won't rule you out of consideration. Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-40500757109301682632013-05-28T20:43:46.262-04:002013-05-28T20:43:46.262-04:00Flayed?? Wow. That's pretty different. Inte...Flayed?? Wow. That's pretty different. Interesting too. <br /><br />I guess when we read a romantic story we're cheering for the lovers to come through it all,to sort of beat the odds. But its always stories like "Communion" that stick in my memory.<br /><br />GarceGarceushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11160407485298015371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-88620707559873401162013-05-28T15:11:14.502-04:002013-05-28T15:11:14.502-04:00Jean- We're on the same page here. In the futu...Jean- We're on the same page here. In the future, you're gonna see rant after rant from me on just the conventions you mention. Fr'instance, when Momma and I first got together, I was guilty of statutory rape; I was 18, she 16. When we were ready to get married two years later, we had to go out of state because I couldn't get parental permission and I wasn't 21. In Pennsylvania, a woman can make that decision on her own @ 18. WTF? Daddy Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927663248424944119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-33838255539847246532013-05-28T11:03:00.466-04:002013-05-28T11:03:00.466-04:00Great post, Lisabet, and intriguing & diverse ...Great post, Lisabet, and intriguing & diverse comments & conversation. I write erotic romance and have just found homes for a couple of my erotica stories. My one story coming from Cleis Press is actually a very bittersweet one - no HEA at all, as the protagonist's Master is dead. Another has no HEA either as the protagonist leaves the scene of a hot stranger-in-the-night encounter altogether (as he is a felon on the run). So perhaps I have embraced the non-HEA or HFN erotica concept. As a romance author and now erotic romance author my stories all have definitive happy endings. I do want to interject that while real life certainly doesn't promise happy endings, I've read a number of articles and pieces on the issue of storytelling, itself, and that the predominant desire of humans is to have stories with happy endings. Whether it is love, or whether it is a good person vanquishing evil, or a worthy person getting their due, it appears that the positive story is preferred by the human psyche. Additionally, science articles bolster the issue of the human response to love and endorphins, satisfaction, including a lowered response to pain when subjects were in the company of their loved one (versus pain stimulous applied when they were alone). So perhaps the desire for HE is a human thing; and those of us who have a darker side, or a desire to push the envelope of erotica will have to strive a bit harder to find homes for those stories (& thanks for providing a few). But I must say I am thrilled at the growth and diversity of erotic romance for the very reason that the stories I write have been (in at least 1 case) rejected by all "romance" writers who read it because it was too far out of the box of "romance" for them (i.e., futuristic erotic tale of women used as sex slaves & the hero was a "training Master"). So we have a breadth of reader preferences, as well as a breadth of writer preferences, and I think that all in all, that is the best place we could all hope to be. No? Anyway. Great discussin!lisekimhortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09072878628169741032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-20556065228160937512013-05-28T08:46:33.104-04:002013-05-28T08:46:33.104-04:00I'm the COMPLETE opposite of most bloggers on ...I'm the COMPLETE opposite of most bloggers on here. I hope romantic erotica isn't erased due to this modern push on dark erotica. I wouldn't have anything to read anymore!!! And I definitely wouldn't write erotica anymore if darker erotica became the new standard (as it feels like people are pushing it to be sometimes).Kim theBword Poethttp://bwordpoet.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-21583284947134461082013-05-28T02:23:26.325-04:002013-05-28T02:23:26.325-04:00True, but under the nineteenth-century laws of &qu...True, but under the nineteenth-century laws of "coverture" (in which a wife's legal identity was "covered" by that of her husband), legal marriage was not an individually-negotiated commitment. And according to Christian tradition, the husband was considered the spiritual "head" of the wife as Christ was "head" of the church. According to a standard script, men promised to love and protect their wives, while women promised to love and obey their husbands. Wife-beating was not only allowed but encouraged. This covenant (unequal commitment) wasn't simply about a mutual sense of belonging together. Religious and secular rules re marriage have changed over time, but only because of social pressure. "Romance" plots set in the past that imply equal status in marriage are simply unrealistic. (Fantasy plots don't need to be realistic, but if the aren't, they shouldn't be presented as historically accurate.)Jean Robertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08805088081675965859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-86952006380801888172013-05-27T21:10:29.675-04:002013-05-27T21:10:29.675-04:00Property no. Belonging with one another is a far d...Property no. Belonging with one another is a far different thing.Daddy Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927663248424944119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-18014316053865826952013-05-27T17:34:09.425-04:002013-05-27T17:34:09.425-04:00Intriguing post, Lisabet. I agree that even though...Intriguing post, Lisabet. I agree that even though HEA isn't realistic and HFN can be found in fiction that isn't exactly "romance," there is a difference between literary erotica and romance, whether or not it includes explicit sex. I hope erotica doesn't completely disappear under the blanket of romance. My big, big concern about romance as it was traditionally written (by Shakespeare, for instance) is that a) it had to involve a man and a woman, 2) the HEA had to be represented by a wedding, and 3) women had no rights in English-speaking culture until the 20th century (& it's still an evolving process), especially as wives. I just can't reconcile the fantasy of living "happily ever after" with the reality of living as someone else's property, yet this conflict never seems to be addressed in traditional romance, erotic or not.<br />Jean Robertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08805088081675965859noreply@blogger.com