tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post3945387878945999598..comments2023-10-25T05:30:54.507-04:00Comments on Oh Get A Grip!: ContraryAshe Barkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03390519279886657608noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-13934552055636040682014-09-25T11:00:33.572-04:002014-09-25T11:00:33.572-04:00Heh. I have a dear friend who's got a poetry M...Heh. I have a dear friend who's got a poetry MFA, and I think from talking to him that writers of poetry exceed readers of it by a fair margin. Many readers are also writers, and I think that's fine--there shouldn't be embarrassment when, at a reader conference, everyone's hand goes up when someone asks who's also a writer. It is embarrassing, though, if writers wind up talking to no one at all, the bass player performing in an empty room. And that's part of why I believe in making the time for reading. Annabeth Leonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07455191827664110878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-2479044891621101532014-09-24T16:13:04.767-04:002014-09-24T16:13:04.767-04:00I think that's a worthwhile parallel, and the ...I think that's a worthwhile parallel, and the fact that our audience often seems largely to be limited to other (erotica) writers is something that I, too, have thought a lot about. It's a mixed blessing because, as we've discussed in the past, writers are often too busy to read their colleagues' work (and will often intentionally read outside the genre when they do have reading time). <br /><br />The poetry community, I suspect, would look at us with bulging eyes and say, "Huh? You're writers, and you expected to have <i>readers</i>? You expected to <i>sell books</i>? Where did you get these insane ideas?" (:v>Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-59742280462337134072014-09-24T14:42:57.167-04:002014-09-24T14:42:57.167-04:00Belated comment to say that, aside from being some...Belated comment to say that, aside from being somewhat relieved at not having to jump into the thick of this conversation while it was still hot, I've thought a lot about the case where it's mostly other erotica writers that seem to appreciate one's work. Have you heard about how bass players get called "the musician's musician?" To me, there's a parallel here. Annabeth Leonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07455191827664110878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-37718751033236550982014-09-24T14:38:22.172-04:002014-09-24T14:38:22.172-04:00A belated note to say that I very much agree with ...A belated note to say that I very much agree with Jeremy's point. I've been at one too many readings of erotica written by authors who've never heard of the ERWA, don't seem to have bothered to see what else is out there, and yet feel comfortable declaring that all that's out there is junk.Annabeth Leonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07455191827664110878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-64178299719747989162014-09-20T10:11:58.147-04:002014-09-20T10:11:58.147-04:00Garce
"Although VCR's hadn;t been invent...Garce<br /><br />"Although VCR's hadn;t been invented yet he wanted to skip the talking part and fast forward to the humping and gasping on the floor part." struck me as really funny. I know a guy who is exactly like that and spends most of his time with his DVD player running at 2X to get to the good stuff. Of course as a guy I can also buy into that. LOLLarry Archerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243985089364955059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-29980624630183166942014-09-20T09:30:35.552-04:002014-09-20T09:30:35.552-04:00Hi, Garce,
We all do love to discuss our frustrat...Hi, Garce,<br /><br />We all do love to discuss our frustrations, don't we?<br /><br />"Thanks for reading my stuff."<br /><br />Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-13111008906376892912014-09-19T17:50:40.756-04:002014-09-19T17:50:40.756-04:00Hi Lisabet!
33 comments???
Man, SOMEBODY'S r...Hi Lisabet!<br /><br />33 comments???<br /><br />Man, SOMEBODY'S reading your stuff . . .<br /><br /><br />You remind me in these moments of Anais Nin. If you have a chance to read her introduction to Delta of Venus, her short story collection, she explains why she wrote them. There was a collector of pronography who commissioned her to write to write them and of course she wrote them in a literary manner. But he complained. Although VCR's hadn;t been invented yet he wanted to skip the talking part and fast forward to the humping and gasping on the floor part. She said writing stories in that way dried her out. She loved erotica and hated porn it turned out.<br /><br />In the end we write what we would love to read. The greatest thing in the world is when you knock yourself on your own ass with something you wrote. Not that we would admit it when we do.<br /><br />GarceGarceushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11160407485298015371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-19801336130895874192014-09-19T04:46:14.505-04:002014-09-19T04:46:14.505-04:00I just finished reading (for review) "Hungry ...I just finished reading (for review) "Hungry for More" edited by Rachel. The subtitle? "Romantic fantasies for women." <br /><br />Actually very misleading. Some of the stories are romantic, but many are not. I can't see even a hint of romance in Greta Christina's chilling "Craig's List"!Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-69551625306411385422014-09-17T23:11:56.405-04:002014-09-17T23:11:56.405-04:00Lisabet, Cleis is doing The Princess's Bride. ...Lisabet, Cleis is doing The Princess's Bride. (How does one do italics here?) They used to say "no science fiction/fantasy," but then fairy tale themes got popular, and Kristina Wright has done three of them, so they finally approved my proposal. <br /><br />Cleis still puts out non-romance erotica--as Jeremy said, Rachel Kramer Bussel and Alison Tyler (and Mitzi Szereto and now Tenille Brown, with Can't Get Enough) are editing that. But they've expanded into erotic romance as well, with Kristina and Delilah Devlin.Sacchi Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10801164916418570059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-7672901138633724032014-09-17T12:33:19.757-04:002014-09-17T12:33:19.757-04:00Well, there are other problems, of course, as the ...Well, there are other problems, of course, as the whole "market" topic here explores. (And, as for me personally, I'm not as active in the field as I once was, hence my annoying "elder statesperson" routine. (:v>) But I do think the significant reality of a conventional publisher's "reach" (assuming the publisher is serious about using that reach) needs to be recognized, whether or not one chooses to go that route.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-83907431746681972922014-09-17T12:17:15.657-04:002014-09-17T12:17:15.657-04:00Interesting to know, I didn't realize that Opr...Interesting to know, I didn't realize that Oprah pushed smut books. Obviously this works for you and so soldier on.Larry Archerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243985089364955059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-56845594306958944152014-09-17T12:11:30.192-04:002014-09-17T12:11:30.192-04:00Well, taking Cleis as an example (and, granted, Cl...Well, taking Cleis as an example (and, granted, Cleis is to some extent sui generis), the books really <i>are</i> marketed and made visible (some of them, at least). Apart from being physically on the shelf in countless B&N and indie stores (and sex-toy boutiques and some public libraries), Cleis erotica books that I or my colleagues have appeared in have shown up in <i>Publishers Weekly</i>, <i>USA Today</i>, MSNBC radio, Oprah's TV show, magazines like <i>Bust</i> and <i>Mojo</i>, the Museum of Sex in NYC, booths at Book Expo America, and well-attended public events. I'm sure none of this guarantees sales, but it's a far cry from invisibility.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-50702817443543777552014-09-17T11:43:52.552-04:002014-09-17T11:43:52.552-04:00I agree that you're fighting for space with 10...I agree that you're fighting for space with 10,000 (?) other authors but at least you have a dog in the fight. I think we also need to separate smut writers from all the rest and consider how much advertising you actually get from a publisher selling your porn. With non-erotic books, they all get pushed but with smut IMHO it's kind of like buying Hustler from under the counter at the 7-11. That in my opinion is one reason I think marketing smut is much different than "normal" publications.<br /><br />I don't consider myself a successful writer "yet" and so my theories might be all wet also. Self-publishing is free and why not try it? After all you can't win if you don't buy a ticket. For self publishing I have to do my own editing and get people to proof my work. You are going to have to write it no matter what and so that is no different. The only additional time is spent is creating a cover so in my way of thinking my outlay is minimal as I work cheap then I have to push my work on blogs, which I understand the publishers want you to do also, so that's no different.<br /><br />Once I've finished another one of my masterpieces (no applause please) then in typically a few hours it is published and I'm just waiting around for the checks to arrive. If I pitched the story to a publisher, I would assume that it would be 6-12 months before it hits the street. My self-published book has been on the electronic book shelves for months before my hard copy shows up. Then if the hard copy is not an instant hit, within a few months, the book store has pulled it off the shelves and replaced it with another book. Then returned the unsold books for a refund, which hurts. When you electronically publish, the story is technically available forever and you never have to worry about the book being pulled.<br /><br />That's my rationale and if you see me drive up in my new Range Rover then you will know that I was right. Otherwise if I'm standing on the street corner with a cardboard sign, then don't pay any attention to me.<br /><br />Speaking of street corners, the other day I'm driving in Sin City when I come across a homeless person holding up a sign which read, "I WAS HOOKED ON PHONICS", which struck me as the funniest thing I had ever seen. So he got a donation from me for being honest.Larry Archerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243985089364955059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-52822707323262890422014-09-17T11:03:29.927-04:002014-09-17T11:03:29.927-04:00Anyway, I think the important thing is just that p...Anyway, I think the important thing is just that people make well-informed choices with realistic expectations—which I'm sure all of us in this conversation do, though in the writing population at large I worry about the concept of self-publishing as a panacea. A writer who knows the lay of the land and says, "Hey, 20 copies and I come out ahead, better this than the publisher rat race" is a success. It's the self-published people who sell 20 copies after expecting to sell 200 or 2,000 that I worry about.<br /><br />By the way, though I've never self-published, I do have some personal experience with these sorts of visibility challenges, because at various times I've been "micro-published" (by which I mean published by tiny publishers who were basically working from the self-publishing model in terms of available resources, outlets, and strategies).Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-69749962202205610532014-09-17T09:56:41.596-04:002014-09-17T09:56:41.596-04:00Hi, Larry. No worries! I didn't take it as a r...Hi, Larry. No worries! I didn't take it as a rant. And I just finished responding to it, below.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-4592950383878546112014-09-17T09:55:35.187-04:002014-09-17T09:55:35.187-04:00That's a good question, Larry, and of course i...That's a good question, Larry, and of course it's a complicated topic. I'll try to explain the particular type of comparison I'm making (with apologies for talking so much in this thread).<br /><br />I guess what I'm trying to say is that, unless one has a true fan base seeking out the work, one can write the best book in the world and put the best cover on it, and if there are—what?—10,000 other titles in the same category at Amazon, the odds of any reader, let alone the right reader, even <i>seeing</i> that cover for a fleeting instant, even having the slightest idea the book exists, are absurdly small. The slush pile may be a rat race, but I feel that self-publishing is one step beyond that—because it's not just that the book is being judged against a large number of other contenders, it's likely not being judged <i>at all</i>—because for the most part it's invisible. Granted, "rat race" versus "lottery ticket" is not a very good set of choices for a talented author.<br /><br />Also, I should also explain that in terms of what I've been saying, I'm primarily thinking in terms of readers, not dollars. A $50 flat-fee contribution to an anthology published by a well-distributed conventional publisher, supported by some advertising dollars, mainstream-media relationships, trade shows, and maybe some hot B2B action will, I imagine, probably sell into the thousands even if it's not a "success." And if a lot of those sales are at "real" prices (i.e., not 99 cents for a full-length book), especially in print rather than the out-of-sight-out-of-mind e-books, hopefully a high percentage of those purchasers will actually read the book, being invested in it. By a conservative estimate, any one story will probably have been read by hundreds of people. Whereas that $50 in your self-published single-story model represents, <i>at most</i>, twenty readers.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-20738391566441240682014-09-17T09:53:51.161-04:002014-09-17T09:53:51.161-04:00Jeremy - Sorry this post sounds like a rant after ...Jeremy - Sorry this post sounds like a rant after I read it and that was not the intent of the post. I was just trying to understand why self-publishers are always beat up by people trying to get their work in hard copy.Larry Archerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243985089364955059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-202844980424258292014-09-17T09:10:05.600-04:002014-09-17T09:10:05.600-04:00Jeremy why do you think self publishing is a crap ...Jeremy why do you think self publishing is a crap shoot? While I'm one of the crap shooters, everything I read about hard copy publishing is rejection. So why isn't hard copy publishing a crap shoot? At least with self-publishing, you have some control over your destiny, whereas with print you have to somehow convince a publisher that your masterpiece is better than the other 10,000 stacked on his desk. Certainly once you've "made it" then they are beating down your door waving checks with lots of zeros at you but like professional basketball players, there is a limited number of the slots available.<br /><br />I read all the time about authors ranting about what a "crap shoot" all the self publishers are while they run around bragging that they received a one time $50 payment for something they slaved months over. Assuming a $2.40 profit on every story, it only takes 20 copies to blow past $50.<br /><br />While I hope that you stay out of self-publishing as that's one less competitor for me LOL still I think if you step back and look at the two self-publishing has advantages over print.Larry Archerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243985089364955059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-10399433014930229362014-09-17T08:46:29.735-04:002014-09-17T08:46:29.735-04:00Sacchi, who is publishing The Princess's Bride...Sacchi, who is publishing <i>The Princess's Bride</i>?<br /><br />Jeremy - Self-publishing is definitely a crap shoot, but I think some people who do not start out with a big fan base still succeed. In erotica, I think this is because they hit on a subject area that pushes many readers' buttons. Like the Bigfoot lady! <br /><br />I'm looking to experiment with self-publishing short stories. I've got a raft of them, but my collections didn't sell particularly well. Maybe people want them a bite at a time.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-87853463738028806882014-09-17T08:43:05.581-04:002014-09-17T08:43:05.581-04:00Good point, Daddy!Good point, Daddy!Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-92070648820341941092014-09-16T12:37:44.389-04:002014-09-16T12:37:44.389-04:00Jeremy, for my own work, there's not much of a...Jeremy, for my own work, there's not much of a following. I did a collection with Lethe Press a couple of years ago, and, while it was a Lambda Finalist and a GCLS winner, it didn't sell much at all. For anthologies, I do have some following--probably mostly people who want to write for them--but I'd have to save up quite a bit to pay the contributors whether the book sold much or not. Well, we'll see.Sacchi Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10801164916418570059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-62624134530331286242014-09-16T12:09:39.971-04:002014-09-16T12:09:39.971-04:00But let's be clear about this, because I think...But let's be clear about this, because I think there are a lot of dangerous misconceptions out there about self-publishing: Self-publishing is a good option <i>if you already have a sizeable following</i> (which you, Sacchi, presumably do, because you've been editing terrific anthos for years, which have earned you an audience who will follow you to Amazon and scoop up your self-published books). Am I right? What I fear too many authors don't think through is that without that kind of loyal, established audience, self-publishing a book, however good (or, for that matter, publishing with a micro-publisher), is basically like buying a lottery ticket. With no means of attracting readers in the vast Amazonian Ocean other than the very dubious mechanisms of user reviews, search rankings, promotional blogs read only by the promoters and rarely the public, and closed-circuit social-networking squee, I have to imagine it takes quite the rare stroke of luck to be that book that actually clicks on Amazon.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-37877135567327844892014-09-16T11:46:31.278-04:002014-09-16T11:46:31.278-04:00It gets even tougher, Lisabet. I've been told ...It gets even tougher, Lisabet. I've been told that to sell books to bookstores, sales reps require some "hook" with which to seduce the customer, such as "Readers who love (insert name of some very successful book or author) will be crazy about this one!" (This was said when I proposed editing non-LGBT anthologies. LGBT books, at least, do get their own shelves in most bookstores, whether they're erotica or not.) If the sales reps won't take it on and promote it to their customer list, pretty much all that's left is Amazon and other online vendors, where ebook sales are much higher than paperback ones. I don't mind that, but bookstore sales are a large part of my publisher's business model.<br /><br />So far my anthologies have not been specifically romance-oriented, but the one I'm working on now, The Princess's Bride, is. (And the title itself is a "hook," which was my intention.) I was so eager to get a fantasy theme approved that I went with the erotic romance angle.<br /><br />I admit it. I'm a hard-copy book whore, and addicted to having my books widely distributed. But I see many tempting opportunities coming along out there, and if I could manage to save enough of my royalties to swing it I might force myself to learn the tech associated with self-publishing, and pay for good cover art and book design.<br /><br />Better cut this short and save my own rants about restrictive market forces for my post next Monday. Sacchi Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10801164916418570059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-31141006907867079272014-09-16T11:11:56.156-04:002014-09-16T11:11:56.156-04:00Maybe stroke material doesn't have to be great...Maybe stroke material doesn't have to be great literature because readers never read more than a few pages at a time? <br /><br />And why would I know that??? :>)Daddy Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927663248424944119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-43728348535959144382014-09-16T07:49:25.413-04:002014-09-16T07:49:25.413-04:00I don't expect fine non-romance erotica to be ...I don't expect fine non-romance erotica to be popular at the level that erotic romance is (and, just to be clear, I'm not dissing erotic romance)... but I think the market/media/pundit tendency to deny its very existence makes it that much harder for the audience it does have, the authors who want to write it, and the publishers who might be willing to publish it to connect. Readers who want it are discouraged from seeking it out (because it "doesn't exist") and bookstores might not even have a place to put it. To me, there's a big difference between "erotic romance sells hugely, while erotica per se, no matter how well written and interesting, is more of a small niche"; and "there's erotic romance and then there's just vulgar junk that insults the reader's intelligence." File under "adding insult to injury." Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.com