tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post7731643003969409125..comments2023-10-25T05:30:54.507-04:00Comments on Oh Get A Grip!: Damned if You Do, Damned If You Don’t, So Just Carry OnAshe Barkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03390519279886657608noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-55510711008570104602018-04-19T13:01:46.782-04:002018-04-19T13:01:46.782-04:00Sacchi, as people have said, this is a really good...Sacchi, as people have said, this is a really good and thoughtful consideration of this subject. I'd add that there's one important element that I think's gotten overlooked in our discussion so far. When writers from a culture can't find an audience/publisher for their work, but white writers can, I think that adds to the concerns about appropriation. When writers of color don't get to represent themselves in well-publicized work, but instead have to watch projects done by white authors become the "definitive" version of the story. I think that if there were more opportunities for people from various cultures to represent themselves, there would be fewer sore spots about how white writers approach these things. The whole issue about G&S is that's all a lot of people knew about Japan. It would be a whole different world if it was in context with Japanese performances and literature.Annabeth Leonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07455191827664110878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-19734426775914323912018-04-19T07:48:05.165-04:002018-04-19T07:48:05.165-04:00Yes, that's my understanding, too: that "...Yes, that's my understanding, too: that "appropriation" doesn't refer to denigration (which all enlightened people already know is wrong), but to well-intentioned and ostensibly respectful uses of someone else's culture—which is certainly a more complex issue.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-10410793350190500302018-04-18T23:42:21.032-04:002018-04-18T23:42:21.032-04:00Yes, I agree, but at least the Japanese at the tim...Yes, I agree, but at least the Japanese at the time didn't have the history of being oppressed by the British Empire that, say, people in India did. <br /><br />I think the emotional activism relating to appropriation isn't about it damaging or denigrating members of a group so much as anger at the perceived injustice of appropriating the attractive parts of a culture that has already suffered damage and denigration and sees it continuing. Sacchi Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10801164916418570059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-11685529188376782312018-04-18T07:54:58.909-04:002018-04-18T07:54:58.909-04:00I had the impression that people in England didn&#...<i>I had the impression that people in England didn't know much at all about the Japanese before they saw the World Fair display</i><br /><br />I can believe it. For one thing, if I recall my history correctly, Japan's contact with the West was quite limited until around 1860.<br /><br /><i>Going by the definition of appropriation as adopting the shiny bits from a culture you otherwise despise and oppress wouldn't fit well in this case, since Japan was never under British rule, and was likely no more despised by the British than members of any other nationality that wasn't British</i><br /><br />Well, but I think the racial othering was always a huge factor. <br />Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-72321061048201168822018-04-17T23:42:23.497-04:002018-04-17T23:42:23.497-04:00I've seen the movie "Topsy-Turvey," ...I've seen the movie "Topsy-Turvey," and was particularly struck by how Gilbert got the idea for "The Mikado." There was a World Fair kind of thing going on in London, and a Japanese contingent came with displays of some of their customs and crafts. This was quite a novelty, and most people had known nothing about the Japanese. As I recall Gilbert's wife dragged him to see the display, and he was inspired. He went so far as to persuade (probably hire) some of the Japanese women with their interpreter to show his actresses how to walk like them for the production, with tiny steps. I had the impression that people in England didn't know much at all about the Japanese before they saw the World Fair display, and more people saw the operetta than saw the official display.<br /><br />Going by the definition of appropriation as adopting the shiny bits from a culture you otherwise despise and oppress wouldn't fit well in this case, since Japan was never under British rule, and was likely no more despised by the British than members of any other nationality that wasn't British (as satirized by G&S in the song "For He Is an Englishman!") But I have seen cases of the rabid opponents of appropriation railing against Anglo women wearing kimonos, which pissed off some Japanese artists and businesses that were happy to sell expensive kimonos to westerners. Sacchi Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10801164916418570059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-38666063707559140862018-04-17T14:52:42.221-04:002018-04-17T14:52:42.221-04:00When I was growing up, I listened to all of the Gi...When I was growing up, I listened to all of the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas my parents had recording of, and that was at least 6 or 7! I memorized all of the words to many of them, including The Mikado. There was a movie made about them writing this one; I think it was called "Topsy-Turvy." But it provides an insider's view into how absurd they found the British Empire to be, and how much delight Gilbert (the words man) found in skewering the foolishness. Little-known fact is that Sullivan (the music man) was knighted in his lifetime, by a queen who enjoyed his music. Gilbert was not, and it was considered a huge scandal that she ignored him. Considering what a low opinion he had of her, I don't think he cared.<br /><br />I write the characters that are in my head. I've written about people of color, Arabic people, Asian people, and Native Americans. I try not to present stereotypes, since I always want to delve into the thinking and emotional processes of my characters. I have close friends from different races/cultures/religions, and I have enjoyed talking with them about those differences. <br /><br />The beauty of the grand experiment that is the USA, is that my neighbor can be of a different nationality, religion, speak a different language in his house, raise his kids differently, eat different food, etc. But we will watch each other's houses when we go on vacation, and stop to chat in the driveway often. His freedom ends when he tries to come into my yard and tell me I have to live like him, and my freedom ends when I try to go into his yard and tell him he has to live like me. This is the only country in the world that has that at the heart of the constitution. It's what my Dad want to be a part of, when he left Scotland with its antiquated royalty behind. And what Mom's parents wanted to join when they left Poland. <br /><br />Telling me I can only write about middle-aged, multi-tattooed white women who are happily married and have stretch marks from their 4 kids, would be very constricting. I doubt I'd ever write again. So by the very nature of writing romance, I have to write about characters who are living differently from me. I try to be respectful, since I love all of my characters...even the baddies. I gave birth to all of them, and I want them to be the best they can be. I can only wish that I had enough readers that someone would take offense...at least that would mean that my books are being read!Fiona McGierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495707848048468428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-55269466364152941092018-04-17T11:58:49.420-04:002018-04-17T11:58:49.420-04:00Last weekend, Momma and I tried to watch "Bre...Last weekend, Momma and I tried to watch "Breakfast At Tiffany's" but not long into it, we started glancing sidewise at each other as very dated stereotypes in the story began to make themselves apparent. When Mickey Rooney, playing an Asian, entered it became unbearable.Daddy Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927663248424944119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-70498984430425016162018-04-17T08:07:20.669-04:002018-04-17T08:07:20.669-04:00I don't have in-depth familiarity with The Mik...I don't have in-depth familiarity with <i>The Mikado</i>, but my experiences with Anglo-American literature of the late 19th and early 20th centuries seems to show that where portrayals of Asians were concerned, there was virtually nothing <i>but</i> stereotypes and exoticization. Audiences, of course, understood that G & S was comic silliness with no pretensions of realism, but nonetheless they were probably so ignorant about Japan that they'd have had no reliable reference points regarding real Japanese culture.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-59002728277947712152018-04-17T05:43:11.527-04:002018-04-17T05:43:11.527-04:00As Jeremy has said, this is an excellent, thoughtf...As Jeremy has said, this is an excellent, thoughtful consideration of the topic. <br /><br />The important questions, in my opinion, about any piece of writing criticized as "appropriation", are as follows:<br /><br />-- Does it damage or denigrate members of the "appropriated" group?<br /><br />-- Does it deliberately portray stereotyped characters, thus encouraging readers to not dig any deeper into the realities of the group?<br /> <br />If I can answer both these questions in the negative, then I'd suggest there is not a real problem.<br /><br />I'd never thought of The Mikado as "cultural appropriation". In fact that seems like a bizarre notion to me. Nobody in the audience would have ever taken the portrayal of Koko, Yum Yum, Pitti Sing and Katisha as having anything to do with the realities of Japanese culture.<br />Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-19097662985929226482018-04-16T13:50:20.402-04:002018-04-16T13:50:20.402-04:00And I think an important theme in your post here i...And I think an important theme in your post here is that you obviously give serious thought to the concerns about appropriation, regardless of what decision you ultimately make. You say "write what you want to [etc.]," but it's nonetheless clear that somewhere along the line you're employing your judgment and self-awareness about what to pursue or not pursue. What troubles me are the people who seem to feel that the writing impulse (or other artistic impulse) exempts them from having any sort of conscience or responsibility regarding what they choose to put out into the world—as though even considering whether one of their own projects might be an irresponsible thing to pursue would amount to some sort of cowardly betrayal of artistic purity.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9156334464585894857.post-51127851448414620342018-04-16T13:21:30.886-04:002018-04-16T13:21:30.886-04:00I think you've touched on a lot of important p...I think you've touched on a lot of important points here, and said a lot of sensible things.<br /><br />I do have to say that I'm wary of sayings like "You can't please everyone" and "You're bound to piss off somebody," in the context of writing "controversial" content. I say this because of the huge difference, in my eyes, between pissing off (for example) a prude by writing sex or a bigot by writing LGBTQ sex, on the one hand; and pissing off (for example) a queer woman of color by writing about their subcultures as an outsider, on the other hand. Pissing off a prude, to me, is a "that's their problem," while pissing off a marginalized person is a "hmm, I should listen to why this bothered them." So the "flattening" or "false equivalence" effect of "you're bound to piss of somebody" feels troublesome to me. Not all pissing off is of equal weight.Jeremy Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980177431018869829noreply@blogger.com